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Whats the deal with 1911's?

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  • #46
    Just to clarify...

    The Marine Special Operations Command issues 1911s, most now are custom orders from Springfield Armory with USMC serial number prefixes, although there are still PWS guns floating around, and the Kimbers from Det 1 are on the west coast, and were still in use last I checked. The PWS gun I had originally was a little worse for wear, but still 100%. I was issued a new SA gun in my first company, and it ran 100% from day one, but had a heavy trigger because no one adjusted the sear spring properly, but that was an easy fix, and went to 4# after the fix. This was from the first batch of pistols made. The second new SA gun I had with another company was 100% from day one, and had a 4.25# trigger from the start. The Springfield guns shot about 2-2.5" with good ammo at 25yds, but the military ball ammo sucks, and shot about 3-3.5" at best. Wilson 7rd mags are issue, but a lot of guys ran mccormick 8 and 10rd mags. Many replace the stupid pachymar grips with gunner grips and a piece of skateboard tape on the front strap. SA mag wells get swapped out regularly, too. We run about 1000rds or more in qualification prior to deployment through each gun and more in maintenance shoots. I've never had a single failure on any of the 3 guns. My guns ran in super ****ty conditions, covered with dust, wet, whatever. Nothing got muj attention like a .45 cal barrel, and the big pistol got more respect than anything else in the arsenal. Johnny Jihad would ignore you and keep coming if you pointed an M4 or even a 240 at him, but if you skinned the slabside, he'd freeze in a heartbeat.

    As nasty as the dust is over there, it was nice to be able to completely detail strip the pistol in about 2 minutes to get all the crap out. Try that with any double action auto, especially the Beretta.

    If you are talking about a secondary arm, or even a primary for that matter, if you can't solve a problem with 8 or 9 rounds of .45, you need to be using those 8 or 9 rounds to extricate your butt from the situation, and having more rounds before a reload probably ain't gonna help. For open or tactical carry, the 10 rounder gives you 11rds, if you're worried.

    Force Recon has also been re-established now that MARSOC is running on its own, and you'll probably see similar armament there, although I'd have to verify.

    There was talk of swapping to something more modern and easier to maintain, but I hope it doesn't go that way.

    I like the 220 for what it is, and it's a well made piece, but I don't have much use for double action auto pistols. YMMV.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by spqr476 View Post
      There was talk of swapping to something more modern and easier to maintain, but I hope it doesn't go that way.

      .
      Relatively speaking, the 1911 is still a pretty modern piece of equipment.

      Thank you, too, for your service in your profession.

      The Brown Bess was produced for almost 140 years, used as a primary arm of the largest military in the world for about 100 years, and was used by others for almost 200 years.

      The longbow was an ancient invention that really came in to its own in the middle ages as a primary military weapon. For several hundred years, nothing could compete. On that note, the 'weapon' I am most likely to have near when not on duty is an axe; pretty nasty stuff when used by one who is very familiar with its abilities and limitations, even though it is not anywhere near my top of the list, it will do the job if the mind & heart are in the right place for the circumstances. It doesn't always have to be a gun in your hand to win.

      History shows that every so often, a particular weapon arrives in man's hand that cannot be equaled. In the case of combat handguns for military use, it is hard to beat the 1911.

      I stick with the SIG as I am an LEO and that is what I was originally issued...LEO work unfortunately carries with it some political considerations not found in (some) military circles, including the percieved need by our bosses to equip us with DA triggers. For that purpose - and others, including over a quarter century of familiarity - I stick with the SIG; for me it has been trustworthy, reliable, accurate, when (not if) if fails I know how to fix it and make it go bang again...and I'm just too damn old now to learn another. Again, I have seen enough 1911s fail in the hands of similarly trained individuals - not supersecretninja types who are 20 something, but middle-aged average joe cops - so that while I may still want to have a 1911 for me to play with, the one I bet my life on is a SIG DA/SA or DAK.

      I am NOT trying to disparage the 1911. I still think it is a marvel of engineering, art, and religion, but is best off for serious uses with others than for me. And I am still sure that there are other that can put together a many-page thread as to why they know (not just think) a SIG is the devil's work and ranks slightly lower than an Edsel. It's just a tool.

      The 1911 is a very good firearm. History is behind it, as with many arms before it is a trend-setter and benchmark. I am sure God himself prefers a 1911, but that's just me.

      I have mine, though, and it is SIG and will always be, although that timeframe is a lot shorter now than some of the post-teen & younger adults here. My most trustworthy 226 is older than many who frequent here; I cannot honestly say the same trust is with newer SIGs as I do not have the familiarity with the newer generation.

      My original point holds: some man who purchases & practices hard with a cheapo Taurus, Hi Point, or whatever - even a Ruger single action - as long as he is well-practiced with that arm and can handle, maintain, and most of all shoot with it, is far better off than the fashionable owner who buys himself an ubersupercustomshooter 1911, tricked-out SIG 220 X-Six, or other hi-end multi-thousand dollar pistol, who in turn only takes it out to shoot once or twice a year. And there seem to be plenty of those metrosexual gun owners these days, to be sure.

      It's not the tool, guys. It's the man. A man with a cheap shooting pistol who knows how to work it through practice will always outdo the wannabe with the supercustom hi-dollar whatever any day of the week. And even before practicing with the tool is having the mindset; it is one thing to learn how to shoot, it is quite another ballgame to learn how to fight with a firearm. Those two points are from opposite ends of the universe for many folks. Bring them together to really succeed. And live through the baddest times when you really needed that gun.

      It's always been that way. Like Bat Masterson said: "Be fast, be accurate, be deliberate." No where in there does it say ,"own a single action army," even thought that is what he preferred. It is more about training, practice, and mindset that it ever will be about tools.

      Any guys/gals who know guns from having actually used them - a lot - are tops in my books, especially if you have done so because your fellow citizens have asked you to. All such guys who love 1911s are generally pretty good guys; all similar who would trash a SIG (assuming it is something you know from your own experience and not just "I once heard...") you're usually pretty good, too. Pass the scotch & light up a cuban...let's move on with this campfire story...

      AW

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      • #48
        I have several 1911's but this is my favorite, that I carry concealed daily.

        Dan Wesson [pre-CZ] PM10-S 10MM

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        • #49
          answer

          To answer your question, I think, would be to say that for a fighting gun, nothing really does what the 1911 does.It bites hard and is easy to repair for most folks.It also has the ability to fly off dealer shelfs even when other guns aren't selling. That makes them sought after and expensive.Still, you can't beat them for fighting.They work, they look good, they are intimidating, etc.

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          • #50
            A SIG P220 45 (especially an all matching number West German made version) is far superior to any 1911 I've had and I'd be willing to bet I've had more than anyone here, hands down.

            Better ergonomics, reliability, accuracy and ease of maintenance = SIG-SAUER P220.
            KMA - KGC - THA - #01
            Owner:
            www.WarRifles.com



            '308 Holes Make Invisible Souls'

            'The Path of Excess Leads to the Palace of Wisdom'

            'Crush Your Enemies, See Them Driven Before You, Hear the Lamentations of their Women'



            You cannot invade mainland America.
            There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass.

            Isoroku Yamamoto, Japanese Admiral

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            • #51
              I wish I would have never sold my Springfield Armory 1911 in 1995.
              It only cost me $275 new, things sure have changed since then.
              Last edited by LoBo; 09-22-2010, 02:21 PM.
              always share the goods with your friends.

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              • #52
                Let's not lose sight if the fact that until you have velocities that create wound channels where permanent blood clotting? congealing? (I have forgotten the term for the black substance blood turns into in a hyper velocity wound channel...sorry) all you have to bet your life on is the diameter of the bullet!

                Magnum rounds get the velocity you need to shock surrounding tissues, as with high power rifle or carbine rounds, but regular old .45cal vs. 9mm I'll choose what gives me the bigger wound channel. I'd rather knick an artery with an expanded .45 than miss it altogether with a 9mm.

                Caveat: I am aware there are pistol shooters out there that are F-A-R superior to me in combat shooting. That's why I want a .45! When my life (or even worse my loved ones lives) are on the line....I want to stop the threat! If I have no rifle & I have no shotgun & I have no magnum pistol....give me a .45! I will stop the threat.
                THA - member #069
                KGC - member #11



                WHY ME WHEN THERE IS AN ATHEIST JUST DOWN THE STREET?!?!


                http://www.warrifles.com
                One great place.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Briansammo View Post
                  A SIG P220 45 (especially an all matching number West German made version) is far superior to any 1911 I've had and I'd be willing to bet I've had more than anyone here, hands down.

                  Better ergonomics, reliability, accuracy and ease of maintenance = SIG-SAUER P220.
                  Maybe you should have went for quality instead of quantity in your 1911s.

                  To each his own, but...although ergonomics are subjective, the bore line is high, it's a traditional double action with 2 trigger reset positions to deal with, and SIGs are not known for friendly double action pulls.

                  It doesn't get much more reliable than zero failures-- I can't remember the last malfunction I had that wasnt because I let something like a backwards primer slip my quality control when reloading, and you can detail strip a 1911 in under a minute to nearly the bare frame.

                  SIGs have some fine manufacturing quality behind them, but so do a lot of 1911s these days. Colts suck out of the box, the lower end springfields and kimbers need some upgrades, para is like a box of chocolates, But any intermediate model like a TRP, or kimber warrior, or production customs, and they are a thing of beauty. The intermediate models are comparable to what a SIG costs, and even the lower models can be made top notch in function and trigger pull with about $100 in gunsmithing. An $800 Colt XDE after $150 of action work, dehorning, and a true beavertail grip safety is a thing of beauty. Still under the $$$ for a SIG P220.

                  I'm all for ya if ya like the SIG, but I am less than a fan of the design. The blanket statement is a bit ridiculous, don't you think?

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                  • #54
                    Actually, Brian's 'blanket statement' applies perfectly to the OP; SIG out of the box does have better accuracy & reliability - without any further modification - than an out-of-the-box 1911 at the same price point.

                    A new 220 here, DA/SA pull, two mags, and night sights, is just under $900.00. That's less than that $800.00 Colt XSE with appropriate after work for an additional $150.00, or that $1000.00+ Kimber Warrior.

                    I can detail strip any classic SIG in under a minute too, and there are fewer parts when done so (and fewer tiny ones to lose), than with a 1911. And a simple field strip is still faster than with a 1911.

                    While the DA pull can be heavy it can be significantly lightened (if you want) through the factory for little cost and (for mine) a three-week turnaround, and although DAO the DAK is available for around 6# pull, and now you can get the 220 as an SAO with a glass-smooth trigger - with the plus that you can still operate the slide if the safety is engaged, which cannot be done with a 1911 (if that matters to the user).

                    If I have a barrel problem - or simply want a spare - with a 220 I can just order a new one and slap it in, which cannot be done with any 1911 and maintain the original accuracy without fitting.

                    Either pistol needs springs & pins replaced every 5K rounds or so, so that is a wash. The 1911 does have a lot more availability of holsters and accessories. Good quality mags for either will run about the same.

                    An earlier poster questioned 'how could he know' he's had more 1911s than anyone else here? Well, how do we know he hasn't? Not trying to be fresh, but there's a tiny town near me that sells bumper stickers "Welcome to (x town), the center of the universe" and the local thought is "well, how do we know it isn't?". All of us here can say what we want thanks to him but it is still his website, so if he wants to claim that he's got a 2-pound M14, a quad M2 on top of his Cooper Mini, or the world's biggest colllection of 1911s, so what?

                    Finally, for best dollars, what I would do (and have done) is buy a good used 220 for $500.00+ (a beat one in good mechanical shape around here will run $495-$565 or so) and send it off for a complete refinish, new night sights, action tune, and new springs & pins. Last time I did that (earlier this year) it was a package price of less than $200.00; God smiled on me and it cost me far less. I can't get that with any 1911 that I've come across and know that I'll have the same reliability, accuracy, or ability to self-service the firearm to keep it so.

                    1911s are a good platform and I won't deny that to anyone. SIGs do it for me and that is what I stick with.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by ancient woodsman View Post
                      1911s are a good platform and I won't deny that to anyone. SIGs do it for me and that is what I stick with.
                      That's the bottom line that I was getting at. You are well-armed with either category of arm, and in reality, the hi-point in your pocket is better than the wilson CQB you left at home.

                      I'll concede some of the out-of-the box at the same price point comparisons, but it still comes with a Trad DA, DAO, or the DAK thing, all of which are sub-optimal FOR ME, and the combination of the high bore line and the trigger combine for me to have slower splits, and in general, less personally satisfactory performance than with a 1911 or Glock.

                      As far as craftsmanship, If you're going 220, I totally agree with going with an older 220...My first experience with a 220 was with one of the older guns c1990 or so...very smooth, very solid, nice to look at, etc. Still, had a 12# DA trigger. Smooth 12#, but 12#, and Trad DA, so it wasn't for me, even if I would swap springs for a little less pull.

                      One way or the other, I still like SIGs over HKs...those particular krauts have some fine craftsmanship as well, but sometimes I don't know what they're thinking when they build a pistol. (The thumb safety decocks on the downstroke? The mag release works how? )

                      Heck, I'm forced to be proficient with Glocks, and I even carry them on occasion. I still find them an offensive insult to fine firearm craftsmanship, but they work, the trigger pull and accuracy can be acceptable, and I shoot them well. My tolerant scorn of the platform has evolved into closet admiration, I guess. For $500 you get a completely reliable, durable, and effective SD handgun that I don't feel bad about leaving dirty if I'm not carrying it. It just ain't very purty and feels like a toy.

                      Has anyone ever worn out a pistol barrel? I have a 1911 that I built when I was 17 and have shot competitively on and off to the tune of well over 50,000 rounds. It has a Colt National Match barrel that I welded up the hood and lugs on because I couldn't afford one of the fancy oversized Bar-sto or Wilson barrels as a high school kid gunsmithing for spending money. It doesn't shoot sub 2" groups at 25yds anymore, but it shoots 2-2.5" ones. The lands, grooves, and all lockup surfaces look like I probably have 50 or 100 thousand more rounds left in it. I've changed nothing on that gun but the recoil spring many times, the sights..had tritiums installed after I got a real job post college, grips (wore out a set), and I swapped out the thumb safety for an ambi. Still has a glass rod 4# trigger, and cycles like frog snot on wet ice.

                      This is rambling off-topic, so it's time to get back to work.

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                      • #56
                        West German, all matching serial numbered and military proof marked P220's.

                        Equals Perrrrrfection.

                        It is what it is.
                        KMA - KGC - THA - #01
                        Owner:
                        www.WarRifles.com



                        '308 Holes Make Invisible Souls'

                        'The Path of Excess Leads to the Palace of Wisdom'

                        'Crush Your Enemies, See Them Driven Before You, Hear the Lamentations of their Women'



                        You cannot invade mainland America.
                        There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass.

                        Isoroku Yamamoto, Japanese Admiral

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                        • #57
                          Quality of build and metallurgy are one thing. Personal preference as well.

                          But for a design with a high bore axis, compromise operating system, and poor trigger function to be proclaimed as perfect? C'mon. Of course, Glock claims perfection, and HK claims no compromises...perhaps it's some kind of Germanic/Austrian thing.

                          I'll take a proper 1911 anyday, Austrian "perfection" after that, then start sifting through my other crunchenticker options if I must.

                          100 years of JMB perfection. MMMMMM good. And it screams "MAN" instead of black turtleneck, slick-haired, Dieder and the Sprockets SNL skits.

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                          • #58
                            With my hand size, SIG is not a high bore axis situation for me.
                            I prefer an "Intentional finger pressure" first shot followed by a crisper follow up trigger weight, but I never have had a "transitional" trigger issue with DA/SA.

                            Accuracy and Reliability are key to a combat handgun, the West German hallmarked SIGs (which are much better than the post 199o's era guns) will give you both. All this without the higher cost of a De-Bugged 1911 and in a lighter package.

                            My West German SIGs will chamber empty brass, now that is reliable!
                            KMA - KGC - THA - #01
                            Owner:
                            www.WarRifles.com



                            '308 Holes Make Invisible Souls'

                            'The Path of Excess Leads to the Palace of Wisdom'

                            'Crush Your Enemies, See Them Driven Before You, Hear the Lamentations of their Women'



                            You cannot invade mainland America.
                            There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass.

                            Isoroku Yamamoto, Japanese Admiral

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              I have a Dan Wesson Classic Bobtail that is dead sexy, great example of the 1911 platform.....smooth, precise, reliable..... what more could you ask for? All for about 1000.00 dollars.......

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                I have a Para Ordnance GI Expert that has been a great gun for me. Very accurate and I've had zero malfunctions. All for about $600. My experience with Sigs has been limited to the P229 DAK that I shot in basic training, but it was enough to know that they're not for me. There's nothing wrong with the gun, but it just didn't seem to fit me. I'm not a fan of the trigger pull either. I'm used to single action.

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